MMRCA - FX Indiano

[AlbertoRJ]

Nem precisam pensar muito para decidir.

[]'s

[marcelo l.]

Eu diria que a mais perto de acerto é essa analise:

"Mind you, MRCA deal does NOT include any future upgrades. All upgrades in the future and even weapons will require additional funding.
Whenever an upgrade is proposed, we will have to pay for that upgrade at that time.

Even I believe the best aircraft should win, but I don't know how you define a best aircraft against China, because against China, we will require the best air dominance aircraft to take down their thousands of fighters. We can not compete with them numerically, so we need the best quality. Our strike aircraft wouldn't get a chance to strike them unless their air fleet is taken care of. So air dominance/superiority would be India's aim in case of a war
against China".

http://www.indiandefence.com/forums/f7/ ... dex47.html

[PRick]

Cara, que análise profunda e técnica essa, hein!?

Já compraram isso e aquilo, looooogo, só pode dar isso outro!!!!

Isso parece aquele papo da galinha pondo ovos na mesma cesta. Quer dizer filosofia de buteco ou lobie de terceira.

[]´s

[PRick]

Rafale vs EF comparison, based on reports, or analysises from journalists, or IAF officials, part 1


According Mr. A. Tellis and his carnegy report and his view on the operational requirements of IAF, the wining MMRCA has to be a multi role aircraft, ...

1) that is equally good in A2A and A2G roles - Advantage Rafale (designed for balanced multi role capabilities, while it's only a secondary aim of EF design)

2) that is highly versatile to fulfill a wide range of missions - Advantage Rafale (the aim was to replace 7 different fighters in their roles and this is already proven in combat!)

3) that has a low RCS, high maximum speed, long range sensor and weapons, as well as a sophisticated EWS for C-AISR missions - Tie (EF is faster and has the better radar, while Rafale has the better general sensors and EWS capabilities

4) that has a variety of PGMs and standoff weapons - Advantage Rafale (Laser, GPS and IR guided PGMs, as well as Scalp cruise missile. Integrated, ready and proven.)

5) that will takeover the main strike role in IAF from older ground attack fighters - Advantage Rafale (all said before)

6) that offers advanced radars with A2G modes, LDPs, superior EWS that enable the fighter to enter the an airspace with a dense SAM threat and is able to fulfill the strike attack in the first pass over - Advantage Rafale (although radar modes might need some improvements, SPECTRA EWS is a big advantage here and the integrated Damocles pod on a dedicated pod station adds even more. The biggest advantage though is that it can attack up to 6 different ground targets in 1 pass over with the AASM and according AFAIK IAF was impressed by this capability during the trials as well!)

7) that offers highly capable direct attack and standoff weapons, for deep penetration strike missions, but not neccesarily dedicated SEAD weapons - Advantage Rafale (AASM is even more capable then the US JDAM, that could be integrated into EF in future, both fighters offer the same cruise missiles, but with different names)

8) that still offers the high maneuverability that IAF requires for the A2A role - Tie (both are highly maneuverable with the delta canard design)

9) that can offer a maritime attack capability for the future - Advantage Rafale (already available with Exocet, EF won't have it, because no customer wants it so far and even the radar is said to have no air to sea mode. Both can be added, but requirers further fundings from us)


Results:

Rafale - 7
EF - 0
Tie - 2


According a chhindits.blogspot report on the MMRCA...

... the RFP, a copy of which is with DNA, the IAF states the following engine combat ASQRs:

1) the MMRCA should have sea-level static thrust-to-weight ration of 1:1 or better with maximum afterburner - Advantage EF (both have TWRs above 1, but EF is better)

2) should be able to carry an external load of atleast 5000 kilograms (comprising air-to-air and air-to ground weapons) - Advantage Rafale (both can carry more than required, but Rafales has 2t more payload and the design is more suited for higher loads)

3) fly for a minimum eight hours with air-to-air refueling - Advantage Rafale (Both fulfill the requirement, but if high endurance patrol, or deep penetration missision, comparable to MKI is the aim, Rafale is more suited with the operational twin seat version and not only a twin seat trainer.)

4) should be a 9G aircraft, Tie

5) the twin-seat trainer should be exactly like the single-seat fighter - Advantage Rafale (EFs twin seat version fulfills the requirements, but is mainly used as a trainer only, while Rafales twin seat version is in operational service, especially in the strike roles).


Results:

Rafale - 3
EF - 1
Tie - 1


Reports: Chindits: MMRCA Update : F-18 Has Underpowered Engine, No One 100% Compliant, Says Report, Vendors Revise Their Prices !!

Courtesy :Sancho, Fellow Raffian.



Rafale vs EF comparison, based on reports, or analysises from journalists, or IAF officials, part 2


Former Air Marshal B K Pandey pointed out in his analysis "Selection of MRCA for the IAF" (about the intial competition with Mirage 2000-5, F16 B52...):

...Apart from the technological attributes, versatility and operational capability of the machine, they need to bear in mind a number of other important factors such as:

1) assurance of long-term logistic support - Advantage Rafale (Europeans are known in India for quality products and good after sale supports, be it Mirage 2000s, Jaguars, Eurocopter helicopters, or German subs, all with clearly less technical problems and without spare supply issues like Russian counterparts. But the official reports from England about canibalisations of EFs and limited training time for pilots caused by several problems in the spare supply should be a major concern for Indian forces, especially with the recent issue of the BAE Hawk trainer and not supplied toolings)

2) problems of integration with the IAF inventory - Advantage Rafale (there are a few weapons on Jags, that could be used with EF as well, but the the Rafale is based on the Mirage 2000 and shares the full weapon pack and several avionics with it, more over the maintenance routines are based on Mirage as well, which makes it easier for the ground crews as well)

3) technological gains for the Indian aerospace industry - Tie (EFs offer of ToT is very good and the partnership offer gives indian companies the chance to be involved in a big foreign project, which will improve their capabilities. Rafales offer will be very good in ToT as well and the French companies have the advantage of already beeing involved in several JV, co-developments with the Indian industry...)

4) sanctions and denial regimes - Advantage Rafale (all main techs are developed by French companies, no major components comes from the US and can be sanctioned, France has proven to be reliable in the past sanctions, was the first who supported accepted us an official nuclear power and supported us for a permanent UNC seat. French government cleared ToT and no EUM for the Rafale from the start and Dassault was the first who offered radar source codes and full ToT of the radar. Is there anything left how they could prove their reliability to us?

5) financial implications and the nuances of the political dimension - Advantage Rafale (In terms of costs of the deal, the Rafale should have an advantage, it's unit cost is already lower and the EF T3 B requires further fundings of upgrades, that to make it equally capable. With UK as a veto power and Germany as one of the most influential countries in Europe they have a lot o offer on the political side, the problem is their close relation to the US. France on the other hands remained to be an independent country although they are a NATO member and showed in the Libyan conflict how influential they can be, especially by the fact that Qatar and the UAE was ready to send (mainly French) fighters. So although it is only 1 country, the political point is strong and only the US could offer more here from the western countries.


Results:

Rafale - 4
EF - 0
Tie - 1


Reports: Security Research Review: Volume 1(3) Selection of MRCA for the IAF - Air Marshall(r) B K Pandey


Former Air Chief Marshal Fali Homi major said in an interview:

The Air Staff Requirements are secret documents and cannot be revealed. However, I can assure you that the ASRs are designed to be contemporary and futuristic, and also have a cost-benefit angle.

In a generic sense, we want:

1) a medium weight, multi role combat aircraft that can undertake air defence, ground attack, maritime attack (anti-ship) and reconnaissance roles with ease - Advantage Rafale (with 9.5t emptyweight it is the 2nd lightest fighter in the competition, but is able to carry the highest payload. With AESA radar, multi spectra passive sensors, MICA IR, EM and METEOR, it offers 3 weapons for BVR combats, which is a unique capability for air defence. For ground attack it offers Laser and GPS and IR guided bomb kits, as well as cruise missiles, with the latest Reco NG pods, it already is deployed in reconnaissance missions over Afghanistan and Libya, while target aquisition and assessment of strikes can be visually identified with the Damocles pod as well. For maritme attack it uses the Exocet missile and in addition is also deployed is SEAD missions with the SPECTRA / AASM combo)

2) the aircraft to have adequately long range and endurance to meet our operational requirements - Advantage Rafale (it has the higher fuel fraction, has more wet station for fuel tanks and has also bigger fuel tanks)

3) extension of range through air-to-air refueling is also desired - Tie (both fighters can be air refuelled. If at all, one could say Rafale squads are not dependend on refuelling aircrafts, because they can act as mid air refuellers as well, but the requirement is not aimed on that)

4) ease of maintenance and low life cycle costs would form part of the selection criteria - Not rated (all hints shows an advantage for Rafale, very few ground crew are needed, provenly high reliability rates in oversea deploymeants be it in wars, or exercises, reported in Brazil to have slightly higher per hour costs than F18SH, but there are too less infos known about the EF from comparabel competitions to make a fair comparison. From what is known of EF customers like the RAF, German Bundeswehr, or the Austrian air force, operating the EF turned out way costlier than expected and the official reports about difficult spare supply are reasons to worry. But any country rates these costs differently, so only figures from the same evaluation would be a base to compare them)


Results:

Rafale - 2
EF - 0
Tie - 1


Report: ..:: India Strategic ::.. Indian Navy: All new MRCA to be purchased from one company



Four different reports, but for all their requirements, the Rafale is clearly the fighter that suits IAF the most!

Feel free to disagree, comment and discuss about it.

Courtesy :Sancho, Fellow Raffian..

Reply With Quote Reply With Quote

[rodrigo]

China Among Indian Air Force Concerns

NEW DELHI — The Indian Air Force (IAF) has long had big ambitions, and the pending arrival of a new service chief with a broad agenda indicates there will be no easing up in efforts to improve the breadth of the service’s capabilities.

The first major restructuring of the IAF’s order of battle, a revival of border air bases to counter Chinese air force deployments and quick acquisitions of weapons and systems to plug capability gaps will be the operational priorities of the IAF’s next chief, Air Marshal Norman Browne, who takes office at the end of July.

The flow of foreign hardware into India will be substantial during the new chief’s time in office. Browne’s tenure as IAF chief also stands to see the signing of tens of billions of dollars in contracts.

The key program Browne will have to shepherd through is the $12 billion Medium Multirole Combat Aircraft (MMRCA) fighter jet contest. It is fitting since, as deputy IAF chief from 2007-2009, Browne played a central role in navigating the MMRCA teams through the process.

Moreover, his time at the helm also will see the government sign deals for 10 or more Boeing C-17 heavy transports, six new-generation tanker transports (the Airbus Military A330 and Ilyushin Il-78 are in the running), 22 attack helicopters, 12 heavy-lift helicopters and nearly 200 basic trainer aircraft. He also will be under pressure to ensure the smooth induction of several large, network-centric systems into the core of how the IAF operates.

The IAF also is likely to mark several milestones under Browne, including the entry of the Tejas Light Combat Aircraft (LCA) into full operational service, and the certification of India’s indigenous Airborne Early Warning & Control platform.

An IAF officer who has worked closely with Browne says: “His other key commitments will include giving shape to how the Indian [Fifth Generation Fighter Aircraft] and AMCA [unmanned combat aircraft] will turn out, and getting the LCA Tejas to full operational status in the shortest possible time.” The officer warns local industry that “HAL is going to find it has an unusually tough customer” in Browne.

With 3,100 hr. on aircraft that include the MiG-21, Su-30 and Jaguar, the officer strongly believes it is imperative for the IAF to diversify its equipment sources and ramp up its self-reliance.

Israel, which has emerged as one of India’s biggest suppliers of weapons and equipment in the last seven years, is a country that Browne knows well — he established India’s defense wing in Tel Aviv in April 1997, serving as defense attache there until July 2000.

Browne also will oversee substantial changes in asset deployments to give the IAF greater reach and faster response to perceived external threats.

Last October, Browne said the IAF would consider basing detachments of new-generation fighters at its high-altitude border bases, including Su-30MKIs.

Under Browne, the IAF also will raise its first fighter squadrons in India’s southern peninsula, including some of the aircraft acquired in the MMRCA competition, to provide security to India’s island territories and sea lanes.

Parity with the Pakistan Air Force, and to a much larger extent China’s air force, will be a major preoccupation for the new chief in the face of dwindling aircraft numbers. While a recent report by India’s tri-service Integrated Defense Staff warned that IAF-PAF force parities were at an all-time low, Browne is more sanguine about the trend. He has previously noted that “the asymmetry between the capabilities of both air forces was a certain amount in the past. That has somewhat [been] reduced now. The PAF is going in for a fast-track induction of beyond visual range air-to-air missiles and precision-guided munitions. These are things that actually tend to reduce the gap. But they won’t catch us up.”

http://www.aviationweek.com/aw/generic/ ... line=China Among Indian Air Force Concerns&channel=defense

[Penguin]

Eurofighter will have no end user monitoring and on location inspection clauses for India

By Frontier India | May 31st, 2011 | Category: Indian Air Force News


The visiting German delegation, in an all out effort to hard sell the Eurofighter, has offered to forgo the end user monitoring and on location inspection clauses in an attempt to outbid France. Eurofighter built by the German consortia EADS is among the two finalist in the Indian Air Force MMRCA tender.

The Germans have also established a military research and development centre in Bengaluru.

German Chancellor Angela Merkel today making a pitched for the Eurofighter said “We have made good proposals and want to intensify our relationship with India. The Eurofighter is the best product on offer. We will not exert any influence on the procurement process and we shall wait and see”. She sought enhanced cooperation in defence and security.



Although Germany is offering a lot of flexibility on technology transfer, it is not pushing for US type logistic supply agreement and Communication Interoperability and Security Memorandum of Agreement (CISMOA).

Markel is facing opposition at home for pushing Eurofighter to India. However, former German Defence Minister Karl-Theodor zu Guttenberg (CSU) was quoted saying “Those who are currently now critically at one point or another have, in some cases even made these decisions. There should never be irresponsible export transactions or the like. We have clear guidelines. We have decisions that need by the Federal Security Council. This is the basis of our actions.”

[Carlos Lima]

Qualquer um dos 2 os indianos estarão muito bem servidos.

[]s
CB_Lima

[Luís Henrique]

Complementando o PRick, viram que o site da Dassault foi atualizada informações sobre o Rafale??

1 - The RBE2 / AESA radar - Active Electronically Scanned Array
The RAFALE is the first operational - and, so far, the only - European combat aircraft to use an electronic scanning radar. Developed by Thales, the RBE2 radar has benefited from a massive research effort and from Thales’ unmatched know-how based on past experience. Compared to radars with conventional antennas, unprecedented levels of situational awareness are attained with earlier detection and tracking of multiple targets.

With its superior beam agility and its enormous computing power, the RBE2 offers outstanding performance that cannot be replicated by mechanical scanning radars.

With the advent of “Tranche 4”, aircraft which are due to enter service from 2013, the RAFALE fighters will be fitted with an active electronic scanning array (AESA) which will provide a wide range of functions:

All-aspect look-down and look-up detection and tracking of multiple air targets for close combat and long-range interception, in all weathers and in jammed environment.

The RBE2 also has ability to track targets in or out of the search domain, the ultimate advantage in air combat.


Real time generation of three-dimensional maps for terrain-following above uncharted terrain in blind conditions. The RAFALE is the sole aircraft to currently propose such a function.


Real time generation of high resolution 2D ground maps for navigation updates and detection, identification and designation of ground targets.


Detection and tracking of multiple naval targets.

In those circumstances when absolute discretion is the most relevant tactical factor, the RAFALE can rely on several other sensor systems:

2 - The Front-Sector Optronics (FSO)
Developed by Thales and Sagem, the Front Sector Optronics (FSO) system is fully integrated into the aircraft. Operating in the optronic wavelengths, it is immune to radar jamming and it provides covert long-range detection and identification, high resolution multi-target angular tracking and laser range-finding for air, sea and ground targets.

With its narrow field, the visible waveband capability is truly valuable to identify targets in situations where visual contact is required by the rules of engagement.

3 - The SPECTRA - internal electronic warfare suite
Jointly developed by Thales and MBDA, the internal SPECTRA electronic warfare system provides the aircraft with the highest survivability asset against the latest airborne and ground threats. The SPECTRA EW system provides a multi-spectral threat warning capability against hostile radars, missiles and lasers.

It is fully integrated into the aircraft, giving it excellent survivability against both air and ground threats.

The SPECTRA system carries out reliable long-range detection, identification and localisation of threats, allowing the pilot to instantly select the most effective defensive measures based on combinations of radar jamming, infrared or radar decoying and evasive manoeuvres.

The angular localisation performance of the SPECTRA sensors makes it possible to accurately locate ground threats to either avoid them, or target them for destruction with precision guided munitions.

With its outstanding localisation capabilities of airborne threats, the SPECTRA suite is a key system used to ameliorate situational awareness.

Instrumental in SPECTRA's performance is a threat library that can be easily defined, integrated and updated on short notice by users in their own country.

4 - The real-time Data-Link
A secure high-rate Data-Link is provided to share data in combined air operations with other friendly assets, i.e. other aircraft in the formation, airborne and surface command and control centres, forward air controllers, etc.

The RAFALE’s interoperability as part of a multinational operation has been demonstrated on countless occasions, and NATO (L16) as well as non-NATO solutions can be provided to meet various customers' requirements.

5 - The DAMOCLES - new generation laser designation pod
The new generation DAMOCLES laser designator pod designed by Thales, brings full day and night laser designation capability to the RAFALE, with metric precision.

The IR sensor of the DAMOCLES pod operates in the mid-wave infrared band, allowing it to retain its effectiveness in warm and / or humid conditions. DAMOCLES is interoperable with all existing laser-guided weapons.

6 - The AREOS - Recce pod - with in real-time transmission
The AREOS reconnaissance pod developed by Thales allows day and night photography at all altitudes, with the capability of instantaneous transmission in flight of the photos to a ground station.

The remarkable overall performance of its sensors for stand-off reconnaissance at extreme ranges means that AREOS can be considered as a pre-strategic asset.

http://www.dassault-aviation.com/en/def ... s.html?L=1

A parte em negrito mostra que o RBE2 é melhor do que muitos pensam,...

[Penguin]

[AlbertoRJ]

Tellis: US fighters lost MMRCA contract due to technical faults
By Stephen Trimble


Both US bids for a major Indian Air Force fighter contract lost because of technical faults - not US export control policies or corruption in New Dehli, Carnegie Endowment for International Peace scholar Ashley Tellis said in an interview.
The former American diplomat in New Dehli arrived at his conclusions after a three-week trip to India that included meetings with top Indian government, military and industry officials. The IAF selected the Dassault Rafale and the Eurofighter Typhoon as finalists for the medium multi-role combat aircraft (MMRCA).
By excluding the Boeing F/A-18E/F and the Lockheed Martin F-16 - as well as the Saab Gripen and MiG-35 - the Indian government angered Washington DC, as well as set off a wave of speculation that the decision was based on concerns in New Dehli about overly restrictive US export policies.
But Tellis believes that interpretation of the MMRCA downselect is incorrect, while providing the most detailed assessment of the factors that led to the final decision.
According to Tellis' sources in the IAF, the F-16IN bid received low marks in the technical evaluation for a slow turn rate and poorer handling performance due to the addition of conformal fuel tanks.
Those deficiencies made the F-16IN less competitive in dogfights against older F-16 Block 50s, which are operated by Pakistan.
The Boeing F/A-18E/F Super Hornet was the US government's best shot to win the contract, but it was also hampered in the Indian evaluation by poor manoeuvrability compared to the European fighters, Tellis said.
Boeing's bid proposed to improve the Super Hornet's power by introducing the General Electric F414 enhanced performance engine (EPE), with 20% higher thrust.
But the Indian evaluators refused to credit the EPE because it is a developmental item, Tellis said. This contrasted with India's acceptance of active electronically scanned array (AESA) radar technology by the European bidders despite its developmental status.
"They just gambled on the fact that they were going to get an AESA by the time the airplane was going to enter the force," Tellis said.
The decision also reflected the IAF's preference for an aircraft with strong dogfighting performance over a combat style emphasising beyond visual range engagements using long-range sensors, Tellis said.
Indian officials expressed no concerns about the US government's export policies, which would have required heavy monitoring by US officials if certain sensors and avionics systems were included in Boeing's or Lockheed's bid, Tellis said.
"What they would have done in this case was demand that the vendor [substitute] equipment that did not have [monitoring] constraints," Tellis said. India had agreed to a similar arrangement with the acquisition of the Boeing P-8A Poseidon.
Despite the initial reaction by Washington officials, both sides are cooling off since the announcement, he added.
"The damage was certainly serious," Tellis said. "But both sides have understood how this outcome came out and both sides have made efforts to get beyond it. The US is going to win many more competitions in India."
Links posted in this story:

Fonte: Flight Global

[Penguin]

Tellis: US fighters lost MMRCA contract due to technical faults
By Stephen Trimble


Both US bids for a major Indian Air Force fighter contract lost because of technical faults - not US export control policies or corruption in New Dehli, Carnegie Endowment for International Peace scholar Ashley Tellis said in an interview.
The former American diplomat in New Dehli arrived at his conclusions after a three-week trip to India that included meetings with top Indian government, military and industry officials. The IAF selected the Dassault Rafale and the Eurofighter Typhoon as finalists for the medium multi-role combat aircraft (MMRCA).
By excluding the Boeing F/A-18E/F and the Lockheed Martin F-16 - as well as the Saab Gripen and MiG-35 - the Indian government angered Washington DC, as well as set off a wave of speculation that the decision was based on concerns in New Dehli about overly restrictive US export policies.
But Tellis believes that interpretation of the MMRCA downselect is incorrect, while providing the most detailed assessment of the factors that led to the final decision.
According to Tellis' sources in the IAF, the F-16IN bid received low marks in the technical evaluation for a slow turn rate and poorer handling performance due to the addition of conformal fuel tanks.
Those deficiencies made the F-16IN less competitive in dogfights against older F-16 Block 50s, which are operated by Pakistan.
The Boeing F/A-18E/F Super Hornet was the US government's best shot to win the contract, but it was also hampered in the Indian evaluation by poor manoeuvrability compared to the European fighters, Tellis said.
Boeing's bid proposed to improve the Super Hornet's power by introducing the General Electric F414 enhanced performance engine (EPE), with 20% higher thrust.
But the Indian evaluators refused to credit the EPE because it is a developmental item, Tellis said. This contrasted with India's acceptance of active electronically scanned array (AESA) radar technology by the European bidders despite its developmental status.
"They just gambled on the fact that they were going to get an AESA by the time the airplane was going to enter the force," Tellis said.
The decision also reflected the IAF's preference for an aircraft with strong dogfighting performance over a combat style emphasising beyond visual range engagements using long-range sensors, Tellis said.
Indian officials expressed no concerns about the US government's export policies, which would have required heavy monitoring by US officials if certain sensors and avionics systems were included in Boeing's or Lockheed's bid, Tellis said.
"What they would have done in this case was demand that the vendor [substitute] equipment that did not have [monitoring] constraints," Tellis said. India had agreed to a similar arrangement with the acquisition of the Boeing P-8A Poseidon.
Despite the initial reaction by Washington officials, both sides are cooling off since the announcement, he added.
"The damage was certainly serious," Tellis said. "But both sides have understood how this outcome came out and both sides have made efforts to get beyond it. The US is going to win many more competitions in India."
Links posted in this story:

Fonte: Flight Global

A análise completa:

http://www.carnegieendowment.org/files/ ... cision.pdf

[soultrain]

Para salvar a face, nada mais. Treta, Trimble no seu melhor papel de lobista.

[Penguin]

Para salvar a face, nada mais. Treta, Trimble no seu melhor papel de lobista.

Stephen Trimble resumiu a análise de Ashley J. Tellis do think tank americano Carnegie Endowment.

http://www.carnegieendowment.org/files/ ... cision.pdf

[brasil70]

Eu não sabia que a Arabia Saudita usava o Typhoon.

[cabeça de martelo]

À anos...