Fórum Defesa Brasil

Hi Jolly,

Thanks for your kind words.

I have searched for the link but I think it is no longer on the website.

In my previous "post", I have summarized all the points from the interview and what the IAF experienced in the exercise.

Basically, the IAF was able to do well in the exercise which gave it confidence as most of the participants were young pilots from India's side. This was a deliberate decision since these pilots will remain in the Air Force for the next 20 years.

India now plans to develop its own Red Flag type exercise (with what it can manage, of course) and attend the original US one, once every 4-5 years.

Currently, IAF has such a Red Flag style exercise for those who attend its TACDE institution.
http://www.bharat-rakshak.com/IAF/Info/TACDE.html

Apart from that, there are war games with the Army and Air Force and Navy as well.

But going forward, these exercises will increase in capability and size.

Several air bases are also being upgraded with new capabilities.

Originally TACDE was located at Gwalior (home of our Mirage 2000 fleet) but later moved to Jamnagar (base with MiG-29s).

Let us see what occurs.

According to an IAF pilot, the problem is of "plenty". Many air forces around the world now want to exercise with the Indian Air Force because of the training and diversity of equipment. The Indian Air Force operates:

-Mirage 2000 H/TH
-MiG-29 A/B/C
-Su-30 MKI
- Jaguar IS/IM/Upgraded
- MiG-27M/ Upgraded/ MiG-23UM
-MiG-21 FL/MF/Bis/Bison Upgraded

So the problem is to attend only limited exercises which do not affect training schedules.

Hence, the decision to create the infrastructure locally and attend limited exercises abroad, when there is time available.

Portugese Translation:
Olá Jolly,

Obrigado pelas suas amáveis palavras.

Tenho pesquisado para o link, mas acho que não está mais no site.

No meu post anterior ", resumiu eu tenho todos os pontos da entrevista e que a Fundação conseguiu aprender.

Basicamente, a IAF fez bem no exercício Red Flag, que deu-lhe confiança. Isso ocorre porque os pilotos a maioria dos participantes eram jovens de um lado da Índia. Esta foi uma decisão deliberada uma vez que estes pilotos irão permanecer na Força Aérea para os próximos 20 anos.

Índia agora pretende desenvolver o seu próprio tipo de exercício Red Flag (com o que se pode gerir, é claro) e assistir o original E.U. um, uma vez a cada 4-5 anos.

Atualmente, a IAF tem como um exercício de estilo Red Flag para aqueles que freqüentam sua instituição TACDE.
http://www.bharat-rakshak.com/IAF/Info/TACDE.html

Além disso, há jogos de guerra com o Exército e Força Aérea ea Marinha também.

Mas daqui para frente, estes exercícios irão aumentar em capacidade e tamanho.

Várias bases aéreas também estão sendo atualizados com novas capacidades.

Originalmente TACDE foi localizado no Gwalior (casa de nossa frota de Mirage 2000), mas mais tarde mudou-se para Jamnagar (base com MiG-29s).

Vamos ver o que ocorre.

De acordo com um piloto da IAF, o problema é que há muitas ofertas, mas o tempo limitado e os fundos disponíveis. Muitas forças aéreas ao redor do mundo, agora querem exercer com a Força Aérea da Índia por causa do treinamento e da diversidade de equipamentos. A Força Aérea indiana opera:

Mirage 2000-H / TH
-MiG-29 A / B / C
-Su-30 MKI
- Jaguar IS / IM / Upgraded
- Mig-27M / adaptadas / Mig-23UM
MiG-21-FL / MF / Bis / Bison Upgraded

Então o problema é atender apenas exercícios limitados, o que não afetam as programações de treinamento.

Assim, a decisão de criar a infra-estrutura local e participar de exercícios limitada no estrangeiro, quando não há tempo disponível.

Archer escreveu: The Indian Air Force operates:

-Mirage 2000 H/TH
-MiG-29 A/B/C
-Su-30 MKI
- Jaguar IS/IM/Upgraded
- MiG-27M/ Upgraded/ MiG-23UM
-MiG-21 FL/MF/Bis/Bison Upgraded

How do you deal with the logistics? Several types of fighters means a lot a trouble for us, in the western side: thousands and thousands of different engines, parts and pieces, incompatibilities between eastern and western sistems (different air-to-ar and air-to-surface weapons, for an example), data-links, maintenance personnel training, pilots training...

I would be VERY confused if serving in IAF...

Túlio escreveu:

Archer escreveu: The Indian Air Force operates:

-Mirage 2000 H/TH
-MiG-29 A/B/C
-Su-30 MKI
- Jaguar IS/IM/Upgraded
- MiG-27M/ Upgraded/ MiG-23UM
-MiG-21 FL/MF/Bis/Bison Upgraded

How do you deal with the logistics? Several types of fighters means a lot a trouble for us, in the western side: thousands and thousands of different engines, parts and pieces, incompatibilities between eastern and western sistems (different air-to-ar and air-to-surface weapons, for an example), data-links, maintenance personnel training, pilots training...

I would be VERY confused if serving in IAF...

Hi Tulio,

We deal with a lot of patience and a smile.

Basically, we had to do this, as eastern fighters were available very cheap, but the ones available to India did not provide some capabilities western fighters provided (which were available for export at the right price). So we had a mix of both.

Also, we did not want to rely only on one country for all our defence needs, whether east or west.

But what has helped us, is the license production of some of these fighters.

MiG-21 Bis, MiG-27, Jaguars were license manufactured in India. That means around 70-80% of parts are available locally.

Older MiG-21s and the MiG-23 are retired. The Indian Air Force has made local parts ("indigenisation") for almost 90% of "essential" spares for MiG-29. "Essential spares" are defined as those spares necessary for flight, like basic engine spares etc, not radar spares or those spares which are for "combat".

Now they are moving to next level, ie "non critical complex spares".

Recently, India has completed its new logistics management software, (like SAP) called IMMOLS, which allows it to keep track of all parts and transfer them to different bases. In case of Jaguar for instance, a fighter which would have needed a week to fly was made ready in around 1 day, as the INMOLS pointed out which air base warehouse had that part, it was flown to that base and the plane readied.

http://www.thehindu.com/2006/10/10/stor ... 741200.htm
http://www.prdomain.com/companies/T/TCS ... 036382.htm

Also, India has a fairly extensive aviation infrastructure comprised at 3 levels, first level is IAF squadron level, which handles basic repairs, second part of first level is the Base Repair Depot (which acts as the IAF maintenance facilities for all planes such as MiG-29 which were not made at HAL),

second level is HAL (Hindustan Aeronautics Ltd, something similar to Embraer but more military oriented and state owned) and Govt Defense labs (DRDO, NAL and others which support the IAF) and finally,

Third level, there is private Industry.

Tactics and mission planning is devised by the Indian Air Force's TACDE and the squadron which inducts the plane. For example, Su-30 tactics are made by No.24 and N0.30 squadrons, and TACDE.

To reinforce commonality, some equipment is shared, for example weapons are integrated across different aircraft.

Indian Mirage 2000's can carry R-73E missiles, and Indian MiG-21 Bis were equipped with R.550 Magic-II missiles.

Transfer between Russian to Russian aircraft was easier in the past, because most Russian aircraft have similar type of standardized cockpits.

Now, IAF is integrating glass cockpits of its own design, with same features and displays - MiG-27, Jaguar, Su-30 MKI all have these. Similar will be the LCA.

But there are still delays and issues, especially with Russian items in the past, since many companies vanished and Russian firms (like MiG) tried to overcharge for spares. So now IAF is insisting on "Transfer of Technology" for new equipment plus serious charges for any delay in supply of spares and equipment from manufacturer.

Supposedly, western companies claim they are better than Russian firms, but this is not always true.

http://www.business-standard.com/india/ ... ys/368815/

But overall, with local production of spares, and aircraft, and new capabilities (IMMOLS) things have improved by a large amount.

So it is not easy, but we manage.

Taí a prova cabal de que operar equipamentos azuis e vermelhos não tem nada demais,e que a falácia dos super apoio ocidental é isso, falácia, pois que tem suas cagadas também.

Outra coisa. Os M-2000, franceses, que segundo muitos experts daqui seriam impossíveis de mexer, estão usando R-73, uma arma russa que não se adapta à nada que não seja russo, segundo ainda os experts daqui.

O que eu acho é que o povo fica se emprenhando por essas besteiras que se escreve por aí, quando temos exemplos práticos e reais das coisas. Mas como ainda vivemos nos anos 50, plena guerra fria, material vermelho tem pereba e passa doença.

Na minha opinião, é um bom exemplo que deveríamos seguir.

For i think is better to SIMPLIFY than to COMPLICATE the logistics, Carlos. We have a very large country, it would be a real nightmare to stock pieces and parts for a lotta kinda planes located in a lotta bases, thousands of kilometers apart one to another...

But this is me, of course...

Túlio escreveu:For i think is better to SIMPLIFY than to COMPLICATE the logistics, Carlos. We have a very large country, it would be a real nightmare to stock pieces and parts for a lotta kinda planes located in a lotta bases, thousands of kilometers apart one to another...

But this is me, of course...

But,

What the hell heve been our situation in the last decades, with F-5, Mirages, A-1 and S. Tucanos, ???


Leandro G. Card

Well, in my point of view, it's exactly the mess we're tryin' to get OUT!!!

Leandro G. Card

Look,

It is not easy to maintain an Air Force so fragmented into many aircraft from different origins... different ways to operate sometimes can put the planners into a position where the are forced to create "several" air forces inside the Main one just to manage different ways to handle the aircraft, missions, and day by day logistics.

Like you both said we are exactly trying to move away from this sort of environment right now and honestly it is the right move... quality/more flight hours/liberty to operate the aircraft into whatever way we want/minimize the 'external dependencies' and tailor the aircraft use according to our national goals is what we need for our country.

We just have a different reality and environment in Brazil

[]s
CB_Lima

Of course i did not intend to replicate the IAF here, of course not.
What I've say is that some ghosts created here are just this, ghosts, they do not exist in reality.
And again, I did not intend to put FAB operating five or six types of fighters, but just show that using two diferent planes from two diferent makers is not the nightmare people here uses to say.

Not only IAF did show it with no doubt, but others countries too.

But that's only my opinion.

CM,

If you have operate aircraft designed with different points of view in mind the only thing that prevents your air force from colapse is... a very fat budget... which honestly, it would be better applied if invested in more rational ways to operate what you have.

But of course there are many reasons including tradition and historical that lead nations to make this sort of decisions.

Is it possible? Of course as long as you pay for it!

To illustrate we currently operate aircraft from more or less the same "school" and we are running like crazy to just operate one type of aircraft, imagine when these birds come from different points of view? The infra-structure needed is just huge and with that goes the money $$$$$$$$.

[]s
CB_Lima

If it were true, we would not have this kind of problems, cause ours are all from the same school, aren't they?
Besides, I don't see the countries that uses russian and ocidental planes as big and rich ones, mostly on the other side and they keep running the busines in good shape in most cases.
So far, if the dicotomy about those diferentes schools were so dramaticaly devastating to those operators, we have to agree that they got to be a kind of masoquist, as long as they continues to do the same for decades ahead and we were to be a heaven os fighters.

Sometimes we have to look to ourselves to see our problems. In our country at least, the problem is less on the equipmente and it's origin and mostly on our own way of doing the job. We simply did it wrong, were it's a russian or an american plane.

It's is more expansive? Of course.
Is it too much as running the buziness impossible? No, I don't think so.

I guess we are talking more or less about the same thing:

- If you have money, you can keep these aircraft operating side-by-side. Unfortunately due their different schools they operate more or less different and this not only costs money, but could also influence the way to operate them more than what we really need.

- I am not against the use of aircraft comming from different philosofies. If it fits the purpose of our END I am more than happy to like this idea, we just need to understand that it will cost more... alot more.

[]s
CB_Lima