EDIT MOD: CV 3, agora FCT

[vplemes]

Uma coisa que parece ninguém lembrou até agora e será de suma importância na hora de escolher o vencedor: O Modelo de Financiamento! Não vai bastar ter o melhor projeto. Preço e modelo de financiamento vão ser fatores de grande peso na decisão. Já imaginaram um pacote de financiamento nos moldes do Gripen? Daria até para a MB sonhar com um segundo lote de corvetas.

[cabeça de martelo]

Não entendi.
Qual eh a fantasia?

Eu interpreto do texto que todos os concorrentes farão DUAS propostas, se quiserem.

UMA para construir 4 cv-3.
E a SEGUNDA oferecendo um produto que iguale OU SUPERE as capacidades da cv-3.

Acredito que pelo valor base (U$ 1,6 BILHÕES), algumas empresas oferecerão CORVETAS e outras empresas oferecerão FRAGATAS ENTRE 3.000 E 4.000 T DE DESLOCAMENTO.

Se a fantasia à que você se refere seja isso, poderia explicar porque?

Eu acredito que russos, chineses, sul-coreanos e até mesmo algum construtor europeu consiga oferecer uma FRAGATA dentro do valor proposto.

...

com relação aos sistemas, subsistemas, sensores e armamentos previstos no projeto de concepção da força

[Luís Henrique]

Não entendi.
Qual eh a fantasia?

Eu interpreto do texto que todos os concorrentes farão DUAS propostas, se quiserem.

UMA para construir 4 cv-3.
E a SEGUNDA oferecendo um produto que iguale OU SUPERE as capacidades da cv-3.

Acredito que pelo valor base (U$ 1,6 BILHÕES), algumas empresas oferecerão CORVETAS e outras empresas oferecerão FRAGATAS ENTRE 3.000 E 4.000 T DE DESLOCAMENTO.

Se a fantasia à que você se refere seja isso, poderia explicar porque?

Eu acredito que russos, chineses, sul-coreanos e até mesmo algum construtor europeu consiga oferecer uma FRAGATA dentro do valor proposto.

...

com relação aos sistemas, subsistemas, sensores e armamentos previstos no projeto de concepção da força

?????

Continuo n mesma.

O texto diz que na proposta de projeto da proponente, para ser aceito pela MB, os sistemas, sensores e armamentos devem ATENDER OU SUPERAR os requisitos/capacidades do projeto da MB.

Ou seja, podem oferecer CORVETAS equivalentes as cv3 com sistemas e armamentos equivalentes ou SUPERIORES.

E eh justamente esta referência que me deixou mais feliz.
Desde que atendam aos requisitos de tot, participação das indústrias nacionais, construção no Brasil, porcentagem de nacionalização e CUSTOS, as empresas PODEM oferecer navios MELHORES.
Como a lista de empresas participantes eh grande, eu Acredito que pelo menos ALGUMAS poderão nos oferecer FRAGATAS e com o mesmo poder de fogo das cv-3 ou com um poder de fogo SUPERIOR.

TALVEZ os russos ofereçam as Admiral Gorshkov por U$ 400 mi.
TALVEZ os chineses ofereçam as Type 054A por U$ 400 mi.
TALVEZ os sul-coreanos ofereçam Fragatas Daegu por U$ 400 mi.
TALVEZ a Navantia ofereça a Fragata LF-4000 por U$ 400 mi.
Enfim...

[cabeça de martelo]

A minha perspectiva pode ser errada, mas penso que muito dificilmente vocês terão algo mais do que já tinha sido pedido. Esses preços que mencionas podem ser e muito aumentados, dependendo do que estiver a ser contratualizado.

[Brasileiro]

Dificilmente oferecerão muito mais do que o que foi pedido. Mas o fato de oferecerem navios de projeto próprio pode representar uma redução de custos de produção e também de tempo de comissionamento. Pode ser que seja uma grande vantagem.

[EDSON]

Corveta russa da classe de 3500 toneladas




20386 -PROJECT 20386 SMALL PATROL SHIPS (CORVETTES)
At the International Maritime Defense Show IMDS-2015 in St. Petersburg, United Shipbuilding Corporation (USC) has demonstrated a new version of the model of the corvette project 20382 “Tiger” for export.

Almaz Central Marine Design Bureau will create a new corvette for the Russian Navy on the basis of export project 20382 “Tiger”, the general director of the enterprise Alexander Shlyakhtenko said on June 16, 2015. “Interest in the” Tiger “Southeast shows clearly, Africa. And most importantly, our navy is interested. We are now making a completely new ship out of it. This corvette will be breakthrough, “said Shlyakhtenko. “This ship has a very good seaworthiness due to a new hydrodynamic scheme – the hull will be new. Electromotion will be partially realized. The weapons will be completely different, including partially modular, “the general director said. Shlyakhtenko added that it was a ship with a displacement of up to 4,000 tons. At the same time, the displacement of the “Tiger”, created on the basis of the project 20380, is 2.2 thousand tons. According to him, the new ship will be able to perform both security and shock functions, covering all areas – surface, underwater and air. “He has a system of detection, and a system of destruction of boats, a powerful air defense is present. In addition, the attack weapon is a weapon that ensures that it defeats the sea targets and targets on the shore, “Shlyakhtenko explained. The general director of Almaz specified that it is planned to lay a new corvette in 2017, and the delivery of the head ship is scheduled for 2019. Presumably, a new ship will be built at the Severnaya shipyard in St. Petersburg. Power plants for this type of corvettes will be created in Rybinka. “We would have already begun to build it, but there is a small delay due to the engines,” the agency’s interlocutor admitted. The main power plant is a combined gas turbine plant with a partial electromotion consisting of two gas turbine engines M90FR with a capacity of 27500 hp, two electric motors with a capacity of 2200 hp. and gear unit 6PP.

The appearance of this ship is much different from “Tiger” family class corvettes. According to experts, in the saloon was a model of long-term patrol ship project 20386 with interchangeable combat units, which is an evolution of the TFR 20380 and 20385.





The new generation of corvettes are in the St. Petersburg shipyard


Electronic warfare systems and stealth technology will make the ship “invisible” to the enemy

The new generation of corvette, part of Project 20386 for Russian Navy, will be finished in either late 2015 or early 2016 in St. Petersburg, according to TASS, citing a source in the defense industry. Modern electronic warfare systems and stealth technology will make the corvette invisible to the enemy.

The design of the new corvette will combine basic configuration elements and removable combat units that will significantly expand the range of tasks it can perform.

The corvette will include an onboard helicopter; the possibility of equipping it with drones is also being explored. In addition, the ship will have the latest domestic avionics and electronic weapons systems, which have no equivalents in the world.

It is expected that this will increase by many times the effectiveness of monitoring water surface, air and underwater conditions and will facilitate new possibilities for conducting electronic warfare, despite the fact that the corvette will be manufactured using stealth technology that makes it invisible to the enemy.

A number of new systems, including avionics and electronic weapons, will be installed on the two corvettes Retivyi and Strogii (Project 20380), which were moved to St. Petersburg’s Northern Shipyard on February 20, 2015.

Today, such electronic warfare systems are installed on all Russian surface ships. They have proven to be effective and practical more than once.

Russia’s leading organization for developing electronic warfare systems for the Navy’s surface ships is Taganrog Research Institute of Telecommunications, which is part of KRET.

Equipment developed by the KRET enterprise can be found on all the large surface ships of the Russian Navy, including the Moskva missile cruiser (Project 1164), Peter the Great heavy nuclear missile cruiser (Project 1144), and the Admiral Kuznetsov heavy aircraft carrier (Project 11435).

Excerpt

The Navy expects to receive the three newest corvette project 20386 until 2025. This was stated by Deputy Commander-in-Chief of the Russian Navy for Armament, Vice Admiral Viktor Bursuk.

The new project 20386 is very different from the base project 20380, its seaworthiness and habitation are significantly improved. The main ship of the series (“Daring”) was laid at the end of 2016 at the “Northern Shipyard”. Its transfer to the fleet is scheduled for 2021.

Earlier, Bursuk reported that the Russian Navy plans to receive more than 10 corvettes of the project 20386.

SMALL patrol ships (corvettes) PROJECT 20386 in July 2013 on the drafting of 20386 reported by the chief engineer of CMDB “Almaz” Konstantin Golubev, clarifying that the design of the ship being “a benchmark for Russian weapons.” On the construction of corvettes for advanced project 20386 reported July 18 2014 President of JSC “USC” Alexei Rakhmanov.

“Given the experience of operating the ships of this project at our facilities, the flagship Severnaya Verf and Amur shipyard, has already begun construction of corvettes 20385/20386 upgrade projects that will allow our sailors successfully meet an even wider range of tasks for the benefit of the Fleet,” – commented the head USC adoption of the Russian Navy corvette project 20380 “resistant.” new generation tab corvette project 20386, which implement modularity of weapons and the possibility of basing drones, planned for 2015, reported by the deputy designer general CMDB “Almaz”, to develop the project, Igor Zakharov. on the upcoming construction of corvettes for advanced project 20386, to develop the project 20380 and 20385, previously reported by some media with reference to the design “Diamond” Office and United shipbuilding corporation.




In St. Petersburg will provide modular Corvette with drones

In late 2015 – early 2016 at the St. Petersburg “Northern shipyard for the Russian Navy will be laid modular Corvette new generation project 20386. It is reported TASS with reference to the source in the industry.

“This is a fundamentally new modification of a surface ship, its design will combine elements of the basic configuration and removable combat modules, which greatly expand the range of performed Corvette tasks,” he explained.

According to him, the Corvette project 20386 “will be on Board the helicopter, considering the possibility of equipping unmanned aerial vehicles”. The ship will also be equipped with new electronic systems. As a result of all these modifications Corvette of this type will be multi-purpose and can act not only near but also far sea zone”.

The source said that a number of these latest systems, including electronic equipment and electronic weaponry, will be installed and two Corvette project 20380 “Zealous” and “Strict” laid on “Northern shipyard” February 20, 2015. “These systems are far superior in its capabilities similar equipment four corvettes of this project, is already transferred to the fleet,” said the source.

Earlier it was reported that the main feature of the new Corvette project 20386 will be a modular design that will allow, if necessary, to quickly optimize the vehicle under a wide range of tasks, changing the standardized modules with equipment and weapons systems.

is hydroacoustic positioning weaponry mounted at the bottom of the ship







Mission

MGK-335EM-03 sonar system is designed to detect submarines in the short-range hydroa-coustic surveillance zone, to generate targeting data for ASW weapons, and to provide underwater acoustic communications with submerged submarines.

Features

The system has a distinguishing capability of intercepting signals emitted by active sonars,defining their bearings and parameters, as wellas classifying the targets detected.Its missions include:

submarine detection in the active mode;
automatic target tracking;
provision of initial data for weapons targeting;
target acquisition by noise emissions in thelistening mode, and torpedo attack warning;
high- and low-frequency sonar communications, coded communications, and target identification with range-finding;
detection of active sonar signals;
automatic classification of the detected tar-gets;
monitoring of acoustic interference with thesonar’s operation;
target range prediction and display;
automatic testing of the system’s operationalstatus.


Sigma CMS









GTE M90FR gas turbine powerplant



10D49 diesel engine
(V-version)

Technical characteristics

Designation of diesel (engine/diesel-generator including dieselengine164h26/26) Application Power range,
KW (h p)





In this embodiment, the corvette set: one 100-mm universal artillery mount type A-190 “stelsovskoy” tower two 30-mm machine-type AK-630M, 2 x 8 TLU SAM type “Redoubt”, 2 x4 PU 3S24 RCC “Uranus” and “Uranium-U”, 2 x 4 RK “package”, the helicopter Ka-27 or UAV with underdeck hangar.



Burevestnik manufactures two variants of 100-mm of 100m A190 Lightweight Multipurpose Naval gun: 190 E 190 E-1
100mm A190 Lightweight Multipurpose Naval Gun is single barrel turreted automatic gun that may be installed on ships with the displacement of 500 t and more.Upon the operator’s command the fire control module automatically turns the artillery system to standby or combat-ready position, ensures ammunition selection and feeding, gun laying and firing. As a result, the artillery system has minimum response time and high rate of fire.



2 x AK-630M



The gun itself is a 6 barrel Gatling gun designated as AO-18. The barrels are in a single block, having exhaust-driven joint automatics. They are belt fed with a flat magazine in the AK-630 and a drum magazine in the AK-630M. These weapons form a part of a complete self-defense system called A-213-Vympel-A, which includes gun, radar, optical and TV control systems. A single MP-123 Vympel system can control two 30 mm guns or one 30 mm and one 57 mm gun. This system can engage air targets at ranges up to 4,000 m (4,400 yards) and surface targets at ranges up to 5,000 m (5,500 yards). The TV control system can detect MTB sized ships at the distance of 75 km (40 nm) and the fighter-size air targets at 7,000 m (7,600 yards). This system is completely automatic and does not require human supervision although it can be directed from optical control posts in case of damage or for firing on shore targets.

6 barrel Gatling gun AO-18





Date Of Design 1963
Date In Service AK-630: 1976
AK-630M: 1979
AK-306: 1980
3M87: 1989
Gun Weight AO-18 (for AK-630): under 452 lbs. (under 205 kg)
AO-18L (for AK-306): 341.7 lbs (155 kg)
GSh-6-30K (for AK-630M1-2): 352.5 lbs. (160 kg)
Gun Length oa 64.13 in (1.629 m)
Bore Length 63.78 in (1.620 m)
Rifling Length 57.48 in (1.46 m)
Grooves 16
Lands N/A
Twist N/A
Chamber Volume N/A
Rate Of Fire AK-630: 4,000 – 5,000 rounds per minute
AK-630M: 4,000 – 5,000 rounds per minute
AK-630M1-2: 10,000 rounds per minute
AK-306: 600 – 1,000 rounds per minute
3M87: 10,000 rounds per minute
Palash: 1,000 rounds per minute
Ammunition

Type Fixed
Weight of Complete Round 1.834 – 1.839 lbs. (0.832 – 0.834 kg)
Projectile Types and Weights HE-FRAG (OF-84) – 0.86 lbs. (0.39 kg)
FRAG tracer (OP-84) – 0.86 lbs. (0.39 kg)
Bursting Charge HE-FRAG (OF-84) – 0.107 lbs. (0.0485 kg)
FRAG tracer (OP-84) – 0.026 lbs. (0.0117 kg)
Projectile Length up to 11.54 in (293 mm)
Propellant Charge N/A
Muzzle Velocity All: 2,953 fps (900 mps)
3M87: 2,822 fps (860 mps)
Palash: 3,609 fps (1,100 mps)
Working Pressure N/A
Approximate Barrel Life AK-630: 8,000 rounds (automation resource)
AK-306: 18,000 rounds
Ammunition stowage per gun AK-630: 2,000 rounds
AK-630M: 2,000 rounds
AK-630M1-2: 4,000 rounds
AK-306: 500 rounds
Range

Elevation With 1.2 lbs. (0.54 kg) HE/Frag Shell
Max Ballistic Range 8,860 yards (8,100 m)
Self Liquidation range 5,470 yards (5,000 m)
Effective Targeted Range 4,375 yards (4,000 m)




9M96 anti-aircraft missile




The S-400 Triumph also launches 9M96E and 9M96E2 medium range ground-to-air missiles. Designed for direct impact, the missiles can strike fast moving targets such as fighter aircraft with a high hit probability. The maximum range of the 9M96 missile is 120km.

Redut VLS for 16 9M96E (120 km range)



Redut VLS for 16 9M96E (120 km range) SAMs are located forward of main gun

Combat power of the modernized craft greatly enhanced by introducing into the arms of a new universal missile complex “Caliber-NK” (instead of anti-ship complex “Uran”) with a uniform 8-cell launcher for several types of missiles – anti-shooting and coastal targets. Anti-aircraft weaponry corvette enhanced anti-aircraft missile system, 9M96 missiles (supplied from 16 missiles).



Kh-35 Uran (SS-N-25 Switchblade) Uran-E shipborne missile system equipped with KH-35E anti-ship missiles





The Uran missile systems comprise 16 Kh-35 missiles – 4×4 launchers with pressurised transport-launching containers. The Uran system now serves as armament of Project 1149.8 missile equipped gun boats and other vessels. A coastal defense variant and, more recently, an antiaircraft variant were later developed on the basis of this missile.The Kh-35 missile has a normal aerodynamic design and an aluminium-alloy airframe. The missile’s power plant consists of a solid-fuel booster and a turbojet powerplant. The missile’s take-off weight is 750 kilograms, the warhead weighs 150 kilograms with a range of up to 130 kilometres.

The Kh-35U anti-ship aircraft missile (Article 78U), propelled by a turbojet engine, flies toward its target at a speed of about the 300 m/s at an extremely low altitude. Owing to its high-precision radio-altimeter, the missile can skim the sea waves at an altitude of 3-5 metres at the terminal phase of trajectory. Its guidance system combines inertial guidance for during the initial flight stage and active-radar guidance during the remaining flight stage.

The missile has a folding wing and a folding tail fin.For use by coastal or shipborne launchers the missile is equipped with a rocket starter-accelerator, a container-type launcher having room for four missiles.

2 × 4 launchers with pressurised transport-launching containers




Entered Service 1983
Total length 3.75 m
Diameter 0.42 m
Wingspan 0.93 m
Weight 480 kg [630 kg with booster]
Warhead Weight 145 kg
Propulsion
Maximum Speed 300 m/s
Maximum effective range 130 km
Guidance mode Active Radarhoming

CLUB-K-type missile system with missiles “Caliber” in standard 40-foot containers



Of course, this modification named the Club-K is somewhat different to the regular military issue used in the Russian coastal and naval units but it is still potent enough to raise concerns with the possible attackers.

The entire Club-K system contains of four missiles (versions 3M54KE, 3M54KE1, Kh35UE for naval targets and 3M14KE and Kh35UE for land targets), a fire control system, combat management, communications and navigation system, and a life support/power supply system. It is all packed in a standard shipping container so it is absolutely impossible to detect its deployment until it starts preparing for launch.




Of course, this modification named the Club-K is somewhat different to the regular military issue used in the Russian coastal and naval units but it is still potent enough to raise concerns with the possible attackers.

The entire Club-K system contains of four missiles (versions 3M54KE, 3M54KE1, Kh35UE for naval targets and 3M14KE and Kh35UE for land targets), a fire control system, combat management, communications and navigation system, and a life support/power supply system. It is all packed in a standard shipping container so it is absolutely impossible to detect its deployment until it starts preparing for launch.




The operational range of up to 300 km gives a Club-K the ability to attack the targets well out of the visual range and to provide the accuracy, it can use any type of guidance available to the user. So, the radar stations, satellite link or anything that is at the disposal can be interlinked with the system to provide guidance.

During the flight the missiles skim on top of the water/land on the height usually not higher than 5 m which makes them almost impossible to intercept. The ability to make sharp turns provides the additional protection against the air-defense fire but the final stage of the slight is what makes this missile a true nightmare for the opponents. Namely, in the final stage of the flight, the missile jumps into the supersonic mode (around Mach 2.9) and that prevents the ship air defense systems like Phalanx to effectively intercept it.

To make things even worse for the attacker, the system can avoid the radar radiation, making the turn around the radar stations and it usually uses the multi-vector attack tactics. This means that the single target is attacked with several missiles, all approaching at the same moment from the different sides.

The same stands for the land targets and the same tactics are used in those cases, but the warhead of the missiles used for land attacks is heavier and it has the shorter range. Still, it is just ideal for attacking the enemy airports, headquarters or strategically important targets. Source immortaltoday.com



Container for 3M54KE, 3M54KE1 & 3M14KE type missiles



3M-14KE land attack missile



3M-54KE anti-ship missile




The 3M-54E missile has a range of 300 km. For the majority of its trajectory it flies at a high subsonic speed. The first stage drops off when the missile reaches the prescribed altitude and its second stage sustainer engine goes into action. This is the time when the missile’s wing and tail assembly unfold. The altitude of its flight goes down to 10-15 metres above the sea surface and the missile heads towards the target in accordance with the target designations, fed before the start into the memory of its board guidance system. The targeting on the cruise sector of the trajectory is effected by an inertia navigation system. The end sector of the missile’s flight with the homing head active proceeds only five metres above the water surface. At 60 km from its target the third, solid-fuel stage separates from the missile, accelerates to supersonic speed and overcomes the defence zone of the target vessel

In spite of its relatively small launch weight of 1,570 kilograms, the missile has a range of 300 kilometres and a powerful 450-kilogram warhead, which can blow up very large surface craft. The missile’s moderate weight allows even warships with a small displacement to take aboard quite a few of such deadly weapons.

– 3M-54E 3M-54E1 3M-14E
Length [m] 8.22 6.2 6.2
Diameter [m] 0.533 0.533 0.533
Launch Weight [kg] 2,300 1,780 1,780
Maximum Range [km] 220 300 300
Speed [Mach] Depends on flight mode
Subsonic Mode: Mach 0.6 – 0.8, Supersonic Mode: Mach 2.9 0.6 – 0.8
Terminal Stage Speed for the 3M-54E1 0.6 – 0.8
Terminal Stage Speed for the 3M-14E
Warhead Weight [kg] 200 400 400
Control System Inertial + Active Radar Homing Inertial + Active Radar Homing Inertial
Flight Path Low-Flying Low-Flying Ballistic

Container for Kh35UE both anti-ship Switchblade type missiles



Kh35UE anti-ship missile




Kh-35UE tactical anti-ship guided missile is designed for hitting combat (assault landing) surface ships and cargo ships from the striking force (convoys) and single ships.

Performance:
Launch ranges, km 7 to 260
Missile flight altutude over wave ridge, m
when cruising 10 to 15
at final point 4
Flight speed (M number) 0,8 to 0,85
Maximum angle of the missile post-launch horizontal turn, degree +/- 130
Aiming system: inertial + satellite navigaion +
active-passive radio homing head
Maximum range of passive detection and locking with active-passive 50
radio homing head, km
Type of warhead penetrating high-explosive fragmentation
Warhead weight, kg 145
Fuel gasoline
Missile start weight, kg.(max.):
aircraft based 550
helicopter based 650
ship (coast) based 670
Lengthxdiameterxwing span, m:
aircraft based 3,85×0,42×1,33
ship (coast) and helicopter based 4,40×0,42×1,33
Conditions for launch:
from aircraft: altitude range km/speed (M) 0,2-10/0,35-0,9
from helicopter: altitude range km/speed (M) 0,1-3,5/0-0,25
Weather conditions for use any conditions at sea roughness up to 6
Carriers surface ships, coast missile stations,
aircraft, helicopters



The ship in the stern “transformennom compartment” capacity for the other weapons, which is expected to create in the dimensions of a standard 40-foot containers. In a container to accommodate any Corvette CLUB-K-type missile system with missiles “Caliber”. The latter has recently been successfully applied during a military operation in Syria with surface ships of the Caspian Flotilla and the submarine project 636.3 Black Sea Fleet.



Experts say that corvette will be made with the use of Stealth technology will become invisible to the enemy. As a result of innovations corvette project 20386 “will be multi-purpose and can operate not only in the near, but in the long-range maritime zone.” Bookmark corvette new generation of project 20386, which implement modularity of weapons and the possibility of basing drones, has been scheduled for 2015. Later, CEO CMDB “Diamond” Alexander Shlyakhtenko said that to lay a new Corvette is scheduled in 2017, and handing the lead ship is scheduled for 2019. A.V.Karpenko, MTC “Nevsky Bastion” 16.04.2016 MODEL PERSPECTIVE CORVETTE 20386 PROJECT FOR IMDS-2015 7 th International Maritime Defense Show IMDS-2015

Helicopter Ka-27 or UAV with underdeck hangar









Paket-NK anti-torpedo


2 × 4 330 mm torpedo tubes for Paket-NK anti-torpedo/anti-submarine torpedoes







CHARACTERISTICS Displacement, t 3500 Main propulsion diesel gazoturboelektricheskaya installation (DGTEU) type CODLOG WEAPONS 1 x 1 100 mm Universal Gun Mount Type A-190 “stelsovskoy” tower, 2 × 6 30 mm machine-type AK-630M, 2 x 8 TLU SAM type “Redoubt”, 2 x4 PU 3S24 RCC “Uranus” or “Uranium-U”, 2 x 4 RK “package” Aircraft: helicopter Ka-27M and unmanned radar systems with flat phased antenna arrays (PAA) CICS Sigma 20380 in implementing the functions of products, “track-NK” and “Route -KP navigation radar MR-231-3 gyro-stabilized optoelectronic system “Sphere-05” sonar system “Minotaur ISPN-M” with podkilnoy antenna based on the CIM 335 EM-03 launcher interference CT-216-06.04-SM01 navigation complex and stabilization by hydrogenation such as “Czardas” system of joint use of weapons secure “lock”

[saullo]

Infelizmente a evolução do design está nos presenteando com navios de guerra horrorosos.
Pode ter quem goste, mas eu não vejo graça nesses caixotes flutuantes, tipo o Zumwalt e essa corveta russa.
Estou ficando velho, adoro navios com armamento à mostra e cheios de penduricalhos, deve ser a idade...

Abraços

[FCarvalho]

Exatamente Luis Henrique. A MB está de olho principalmente nos custos desse projeto, e na possibilidade, também, de não ficar apenas no lote inicial de 4 navios. E se possível for, até mesmo de conseguir um lote maior, dependendo do que for ofertado.

Mas uma coisa é certa, o nível de nacionalização solicitado será um agravante neste questão custo, já que ao abrir mão de produtos originários do projeto de cada navio, isso implicará necessariamente no seu encarecimento, ou não, dependendo de cada oferta.

Eu penso o seguinte: precisamos substituir uma frota de navios que já teve em seu auge nos anos 90's cerca de 18 navios. Então temos de trabalhar em cima desse número.

Se conseguirmos um míx de corvertas e fragatas que nos permitam no médio prazo gerar uma massa operacional a esquadra, e no longo prazo conseguir os tais navios de 6 mil tons que a MB tanto quer, já será de bom tamanho.

Uma esquadra com 18 navios de 2700 a 6000 mil tons é algo mais do que possível para nós, é um imperativo, tendo em vista a completa ausência de cultura naval militar neste país.

E quem sabe para lá de depois de 2030, possamos pensar em Nae' e coisas parecidas.

abs.

[EDSON]

Bem a corveta russa que coloquei tem um deslocamento de 3500 toneladas e sistema antiaéro S400 mas se quiser pode ter o pantjir naval com misseis de alcance de 40 Km.

[FCarvalho]

Bem a corveta russa que coloquei tem um deslocamento de 3500 toneladas e sistema antiaéro S400 mas se quiser pode ter o pantjir naval com misseis de alcance de 40 Km.

O problema não é elas terem este tipo de armamento Edson, é saber se os russos conseguem abrir mão disso tudo para colocar material ocidental nelas, como muito provavelmente a MB iria exigir.

Dos projetos que ilustrastes, todos aparentemente tem condições de serem adaptados, por exemplo, para levar os mísseis Sea Ceptor que a MB tanto quer, ou um canhão Oto 76 ou 127 e até mesmo o nosso Mansup. Se os russos toparem fazer isso, e ainda de lambuja conseguirem manter preços competitivos, então a possibilidade de algum destes navios vingarem na MB, começa a se tornar factível de verdade.

Sem isso, eles podem até conseguir derrubar míssil ICBM's na extratosfera, mas vão continuar sendo apenas "material soviético fora dos padrões tradicionalmente adotados pela Marinha do Brasil".

abs.

[EDSON]

Bem a corveta russa que coloquei tem um deslocamento de 3500 toneladas e sistema antiaéro S400 mas se quiser pode ter o pantjir naval com misseis de alcance de 40 Km.

O problema não é elas terem este tipo de armamento Edson, é saber se os russos conseguem abrir mão disso tudo para colocar material ocidental nelas, como muito provavelmente a MB iria exigir.

Dos projetos que ilustrastes, todos aparentemente tem condições de serem adaptados, por exemplo, para levar os mísseis Sea Ceptor que a MB tanto quer, ou um canhão Oto 76 ou 127 e até mesmo o nosso Mansup. Se os russos toparem fazer isso, e ainda de lambuja conseguirem manter preços competitivos, então a possibilidade de algum destes navios vingarem na MB, começa a se tornar factível de verdade.

Sem isso, eles podem até conseguir derrubar míssil ICBM's na extratosfera, mas vão continuar sendo apenas "material soviético fora dos padrões tradicionalmente adotados pela Marinha do Brasil".

abs.

A substituição do canhão e do Kh 35 pelo MANSUP é simples, gostaria de saber se o radar e sonar é este que a MB quer, já quanto custa a integração eu não faço a menor ideia.

[Luís Henrique]

Bem a corveta russa que coloquei tem um deslocamento de 3500 toneladas e sistema antiaéro S400 mas se quiser pode ter o pantjir naval com misseis de alcance de 40 Km.

O problema não é elas terem este tipo de armamento Edson, é saber se os russos conseguem abrir mão disso tudo para colocar material ocidental nelas, como muito provavelmente a MB iria exigir.

Dos projetos que ilustrastes, todos aparentemente tem condições de serem adaptados, por exemplo, para levar os mísseis Sea Ceptor que a MB tanto quer, ou um canhão Oto 76 ou 127 e até mesmo o nosso Mansup. Se os russos toparem fazer isso, e ainda de lambuja conseguirem manter preços competitivos, então a possibilidade de algum destes navios vingarem na MB, começa a se tornar factível de verdade.

Sem isso, eles podem até conseguir derrubar míssil ICBM's na extratosfera, mas vão continuar sendo apenas "material soviético fora dos padrões tradicionalmente adotados pela Marinha do Brasil".

abs.

Edson. Essa corveta não possui o sistema antiaéreo S-400. Ela utiliza o sistema REDUT.
Este sistema emprega 3 mísseis, sendo 2 TAMBÉM utilizados no sistema S-400.
Mas NÃO emprega os outros 2 mísseis do sistema S-400 que são os maiores e de maior alcance.

Mesmo assim eh uma capacidade de defesa de ÁREA.
Com 120 km de alcance, a mesma capacidade do Aster-30.

Carvalho. Em temos de capacidade abrir mão de um míssil antiaéreo com 120 km de alcance por outro com 25 km de alcance eh meio estranho.

Mas, no fim, concordo com você.
Acho muito difícil a MB mudar de forma drástica, os fornecedores.
Mesmo ficando com equipamentos de menores préstimos.

[Luís Henrique]

Uma coisa que não foi discutida.
Acho que muitos não perceberam.

Nos requisitos de contra partidas a MB exige que o vencedor do processo, modernize a Corveta BARROSO com os mesmos sensores, sistemas e armamentos das CORVETAS TAMANDARÉ. Ou do NAPIP oferecido.

Então no final teremos não 4, mas 5 Corvetas com sensores e armamentos novos...

[FCarvalho]

O problema não é elas terem este tipo de armamento Edson, é saber se os russos conseguem abrir mão disso tudo para colocar material ocidental nelas, como muito provavelmente a MB iria exigir.

A substituição do canhão e do Kh 35 pelo MANSUP é simples, gostaria de saber se o radar e sonar é este que a MB quer, já quanto custa a integração eu não faço a menor ideia.

O radar até onde se comentou seria o Artisan. Mas eu creio que os russos tem coisa equivalente ou até melhor que ele nos seus navios.
Quanto ao mais, penso que se a escolha for por um modelo já pronto, o que vier nele, e puder ser integrado e manutenido pela industria local será muito bem vindo.

abs

[FCarvalho]

Carvalho. Em temos de capacidade abrir mão de um míssil antiaéreo com 120 km de alcance por outro com 25 km de alcance eh meio estranho. Mas, no fim, concordo com você. Acho muito difícil a MB mudar de forma drástica, os fornecedores.Mesmo ficando com equipamentos de menores préstimos.

Luís, já viste alguma coisa que não seja estranha em matéria de defesa neste arremedo de país?

Ademais, me ocorreu um pensamento: no RFP nada diz que a MB não poderá comprar mais de um modelo do que lhe for ofertado.
Então, por essa lógica, e dependendo dos custos e prós e contras das ofertantes, o que nos impede de adquirir mais de um tipo de navio?
Podemos muito bem fazer um negócio envolvendo a construção da Barroso e de outro navio do porte de fragatas, inclusive esta russa com um sistema AAe que com certeza iremos precisar, já que o Ocean não irá muito longe sem um escolta decente.
Quem sabe não rola até algo na faixa das 4 mil tons e equivalência em capacidade.
A mim me parece que seja lá o que for escolhido, quanto mais insumos nacionais puderem ser incluídos nele, sem aumento sensível de custos para a MB leva esse projeto.
E de lambuja, o projeto para o falecido Prosuper no médio prazo.
A ver.

abs